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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:56 am 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

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Location: By the creek
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rezrazed wrote:
Pellethie wrote:
Ravaged by disease and war, desperate to survive, it’s not all that surprising many Indians gave up their animistic beliefs and began to imagine concepts of a supreme master of life, single great spirit, or the Christian god. Of course beliefs were blended as well.

You might want to define the way you are using, "animism" some of the more misguided, let's play NDN types might think that you mean it in the sense that we worshiped animals, and start calling themselves, BigWhiteSnowyEagle. Why don't anyone ever give themselves names like "littleworm?" just sayin...


Pellethie wrote:
I can imagine some Lenape, Odawa, Catawba, Cherokee or even a Shawnee of 1750 appreciating such colonial goods and pondering deeply upon a universal great spirit, comparable with the white man’s god, who bestowed the wisdom to these Europeans, thus allowing them to invent such wonderful effective items, but on the same note, entertaining thoughts of these colonials as having been swayed from ’the great spirit’s path into the sin they often preached against. By the mid 18th century many tribes whose cultures had been impacted by the colonists begin speaking more in terms of a master of life or great spirit as a deity. This concept would spread across the Mississippi onto the plains and beyond after the American Revolution and during Manifest Destiny.


Actually for the Cherokee, we already believed in ONE God, so, it was easy for us to accept the concept of the Christian faith, as it lined up with our pre-colonial belief. And we weren't the only ones who had a belief in a Single God. Your statements might be true for the Shawnee, but not the Cherokee or many of our neighboring tribes, then or today.


I'm sure there are those who are appreciative of the easily converted and assimilated.

So much for cultural rape, when that culture is willing to submit.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 12:26 pm 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

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Little Worm :lol: That's a bit shy of 'Big White Snowy Eagle', 'Rolling Thunder', or 'Spirit Wolf'.

Cherokee eh, of which one of the three recognized tribes ?

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:27 pm 
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Pellethie wrote:
I'm sure there are those who are appreciative of the easily converted and assimilated.



A. Don't confuse, coming to the understanding of truth of Who it was we worshiped with assimilating or forfeiting our nativeness! We did not lay down our traditions, or our way of life, if you REALLY look closely as to what biblical Christianity, you will see that it is describing the way we Natives have lived for thousands of years, we won't even begin to speak of how Christianity speaks Native values . I think the problem is that most people see the "christian" they show on television and they believe that is what they are, just like Hollywood and the news portray us NDN's in a specific light, and unfortunately we have the same bad rap, or romanticized bs to have to content with against the general masses of ignorance.

Pellethie wrote:
So much for cultural rape, when that culture is willing to submit.


B. Even if we "submitted" again we did not lay down our Nativeness, if we did, then there would not be a Cherokee Nation! Only the fakes who claimed they ran to the hills, sounds more like white self preservation than NDN family values, don'tcha think?

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:08 pm
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Location: By the creek
Nation: Shawano
rezrazed wrote:
Pellethie wrote:
I'm sure there are those who are appreciative of the easily converted and assimilated.



A. Don't confuse, coming to the understanding of truth of Who it was we worshiped with assimilating or forfeiting our nativeness! We did not lay down our traditions, or our way of life, if you REALLY look closely as to what biblical Christianity, you will see that it is describing the way we Natives have lived for thousands of years, we won't even begin to speak of how Christianity speaks Native values . I think the problem is that most people see the "christian" they show on television and they believe that is what they are, just like Hollywood and the news portray us NDN's in a specific light, and unfortunately we have the same bad rap, or romanticized bs to have to content with against the general masses of ignorance.

Pellethie wrote:
So much for cultural rape, when that culture is willing to submit.


B. Even if we "submitted" again we did not lay down our Nativeness, if we did, then there would not be a Cherokee Nation! Only the fakes who claimed they ran to the hills, sounds more like white self preservation than NDN family values, don'tcha think?


Well hopefully all of that is serving you in some kind way.

Are you from Oklahoma or Qualla ? I've some friends from Qualla whose ancestors went into the hills during removal and now they hold on to a bit of their old homeland. Nothing fake about them unlike some claiming Cherokee heritage.

Although some of my own family were/are Christians, there are some of us who feel that is not a good path for us as our original spirituality is just fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:25 pm 
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Pellethie wrote:
pwolikin wrote:
http://www.firstnations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2790&p=12206#p12206

well sis i will go into my next part of my book and bring forth some points on why and how come "they" colonial needs us to assimilate. my tupa once stated you can't condition a man to live with fins under water no more then you can get a fish to walk in mans moccasins. but i guess the colonial knows best for us lol....



Sis ? Do you feel comfortable in calling a Shawnee man that ?


Sis, my girls are jealous 'cause you got yours fur coats! :lol:

Anyway........sup w de yuckster?

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:31 pm 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

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Location: By the creek
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SingstheSky wrote:
Pellethie wrote:
pwolikin wrote:
http://www.firstnations.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2790&p=12206#p12206

well sis i will go into my next part of my book and bring forth some points on why and how come "they" colonial needs us to assimilate. my tupa once stated you can't condition a man to live with fins under water no more then you can get a fish to walk in mans moccasins. but i guess the colonial knows best for us lol....



Sis ? Do you feel comfortable in calling a Shawnee man that ?


Sis, my girls are jealous 'cause you got yours fur coats! :lol:

Anyway........sup w de yuckster?


Painted ponies and painted wolves, I suppose. They run one way and look the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

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The original spirituality of tribes I am familiar with, is a big part of their lives. Not attempting to debate with Christians, but in my opinion and no doubt those of others, conversion to a foreign religion of whoever is attempting to subjugate them be it willingly or forced is a big part of the assimilation process. Especially when most all aspects of traditional culture is connected with original spirituality and not those paths that originated far away in someone else's holy lands.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Tribe Member
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Nation: Anasazi
Pellethie wrote:
The original spirituality of tribes I am familiar with, is a big part of their lives. Not attempting to debate with Christians, but in my opinion and no doubt those of others, conversion to a foreign religion of whoever is attempting to subjugate them be it willingly or forced is a big part of the assimilation process. Especially when most all aspects of traditional culture is connected with original spirituality and not those paths that originated far away in someone else's holy lands.


Subjugate or subsidize? I don't think the great father in Washington will give out the green if you say your one god is Coyote, which is what several tribal religions morphed into.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Ranked Warrior
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SingstheSky wrote:
Pellethie wrote:
The original spirituality of tribes I am familiar with, is a big part of their lives. Not attempting to debate with Christians, but in my opinion and no doubt those of others, conversion to a foreign religion of whoever is attempting to subjugate them be it willingly or forced is a big part of the assimilation process. Especially when most all aspects of traditional culture is connected with original spirituality and not those paths that originated far away in someone else's holy lands.


Subjugate or subsidize? I don't think the great father in Washington will give out the green if you say your one god is Coyote, which is what several tribal religions morphed into.

One would have to go with subjugate not so much because of Christianity but more so because of the pressing issues at the time that was creating a lose of a way of life. Therefore to continue a way of life natives had to make nebulous that of which the colonial seeked. Even today if we bring forth our culture in USA we would get shunned. that is why one has to register a way of life as a "religion". which is called Indian quasi sovereign backed by the US government as a "bond" or another word used is securities issued by entities supported by the sovereign or the commoner knows as USA.
In Canada no matter what we do we ain't recognized. that is why no matter how much we yell sovereign and quasi sovereign, if it ain't in Canada's books for Indians,they don't hear you.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

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Location: By the creek
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SingstheSky wrote:
Pellethie wrote:
The original spirituality of tribes I am familiar with, is a big part of their lives. Not attempting to debate with Christians, but in my opinion and no doubt those of others, conversion to a foreign religion of whoever is attempting to subjugate them be it willingly or forced is a big part of the assimilation process. Especially when most all aspects of traditional culture is connected with original spirituality and not those paths that originated far away in someone else's holy lands.


Subjugate or subsidize? I don't think the great father in Washington will give out the green if you say your one god is Coyote, which is what several tribal religions morphed into.


One religion that strives for dominance in a land proclaimed to have freedom of religion ?

Definitely not.

It has me thinking of those missionary operated and government ran boarding schools of the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:15 pm 
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High Chieftan

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 9:15 pm
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Location: Studio City, CA
Hi Pellethie,

Pellethie wrote:
The original spirituality of tribes I am familiar with, is a big part of their lives. Not attempting to debate with Christians, but in my opinion and no doubt those of others, conversion to a foreign religion of whoever is attempting to subjugate them be it willingly or forced is a big part of the assimilation process. Especially when most all aspects of traditional culture is connected with original spirituality and not those paths that originated far away in someone else's holy lands.


This has been a problem with the real Californian history which was not put into the CA history books. They portrayed the Californian Indians as being so grateful and so lucky to be converted. NOT TRUE! Maybe some were, but the vast majority were brutalized. Many women and children were butchered. There was forced labor and forced conversion.

Walk In Balance,
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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Great Eldar Shaman
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from reading your opening statement

i'd say you are pretty much assimilated pellethie

on a personal note

i am not saying assimilation is right or wrong

but think it must be a preferred lifestyle for many

i was visiting with a mohawk friend a few years ago

the question was asked why the mohawks sided with the british?

the answer was they needed to eat

i could understand and agree


Pellethie wrote:
With the exception of the Mississippian’s attempt at civilization, before the coming of Europeans, most tribes in what is now America lived pretty much as they did for thousands of years. Agriculture, pottery, the bow and more sturdy dwellings being the only domestic advancements. Aside from small scale tribal warfare, or raiding, petty greed, lust and any other aspects of human nature, Indians pretty much lived in balance with nature, a lifestyle which served them well enough to survive their migration onto this continent up until first contact with the Europeans.

Of course with the Europeans came changes and now we survive by adapting to these changes in ever changing times. Regardless of assumptions that all Indians would eventually die out, be completely absorbed, or assimilated into American mainstream society, we still remain.

Still there are those who would carry on such attempts to have us absorbed, or assimilated, or else become their concept of what we should be. Reinvented into someone else’s image if you will.

Have we not assimilated enough and continue to adapt in our own way to the changes that others bring about ?

What will those who strive to have us submerged in the melting pot gain and what will we lose by obliging ?

Perhaps we can speak of this in a good and unrepressed way.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:58 am 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

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Location: By the creek
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[quote="ollan xolatl"]from reading your opening statement

i'd say you are pretty much assimilated pellethie

on a personal note

i am not saying assimilation is right or wrong

but think it must be a preferred lifestyle for many

i was visiting with a mohawk friend a few years ago

the question was asked why the mohawks sided with the british?

the answer was they needed to eat

i could understand and agree"


Well that's what you say ollan xolatl, but everything you say does not make it so. We all have our own minds and hearts.

What would you expect of a new age cult member from Wisconsin ? :lol:

Assimilated ? Somewhat like the rest in these times, but not so much as others, or the ones who push it, ollan xolatl.

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:59 am 
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Nation: NDN MUTT
Pellethie wrote:
Well hopefully all of that is serving you in some kind way.

Are you from Oklahoma or Qualla ? I've some friends from Qualla whose ancestors went into the hills during removal and now they hold on to a bit of their old homeland. Nothing fake about them unlike some claiming Cherokee heritage.

My family is from Ok, but have relatives and lineage to all 3 bands, as do many of us, if not all of us.

Pellethie wrote:
Although some of my own family were/are Christians, there are some of us who feel that is not a good path for us as our original spirituality is just fine.


As with anything in life, that's something you have to chose for yourself, in the end, we shall see, if our we've made right choices or wrong!
For me, All that I know of my history culture and belief is exactly what biblical Christianity is. Although there are those who preach the gospel or love and mercy and exude hate, those are the ones that seem to have all the attention and give Christianity a bad name, kind of like the Native who goes out and feeds some new ager a load of dung just so he can mess with their minds and get their $$$ that they so willingly throw at them just to have their "knowledge"

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 Post subject: Re: Complete Assimilation ?
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:05 pm 
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Junior Tribe Warrior

Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 12:08 pm
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Location: By the creek
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rezrazed wrote:
Pellethie wrote:
Well hopefully all of that is serving you in some kind way.

Are you from Oklahoma or Qualla ? I've some friends from Qualla whose ancestors went into the hills during removal and now they hold on to a bit of their old homeland. Nothing fake about them unlike some claiming Cherokee heritage.

My family is from Ok, but have relatives and lineage to all 3 bands, as do many of us, if not all of us.

Pellethie wrote:
Although some of my own family were/are Christians, there are some of us who feel that is not a good path for us as our original spirituality is just fine.


As with anything in life, that's something you have to chose for yourself, in the end, we shall see, if our we've made right choices or wrong!
For me, All that I know of my history culture and belief is exactly what biblical Christianity is. Although there are those who preach the gospel or love and mercy and exude hate, those are the ones that seem to have all the attention and give Christianity a bad name, kind of like the Native who goes out and feeds some new ager a load of dung just so he can mess with their minds and get their $$$ that they so willingly throw at them just to have their "knowledge"


Truly I would have a hard time deciding whether to amble off into the brush away from a group of Christians, or a group of New Agers if they were coming my way from down the path.

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